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My experience with Islam

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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby kumanbangsa » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:09 pm

bhineka tunggal eka

biar beda tetep satu juga
kumanbangsa
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby saia » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:34 am

hello saia

there a huge difference between believing (percaya) anda knowing (tahu)

just because you never know it, does not mean it does not exist ...

seorang anak kecil dikata, jangan pegang api, api itu panas ... dia PERCAYA api itu panas
tapi orang yang pernah kena api, lepuh ... dia TAHU api itu panas ...

demikian juga kalau seorang yang tidak tahu api itu panas, dia kata pada anak kecil itu ... api itu dingin
dan si anak akan percaya

saya seorang sceptic, saya takkan percaya sebelum alami sendiri

I am not believing in reincarnation ... I know about it ... I've seen my past lives, clearly as it was yesterday ...
the taste of the wind, the smell of the sweat, the fear in my heart, the wound I've got, the blood, the taste of dying ...

reincarnation is the proof that True Source is TRULY MAHA PENGASIH DAN PENYAYANG ...
no matter how wicked we are, how bad we've become ... there's always total acceptance and forgiveness ...


Mr.Bluelotus ....

i wonder if I look at the relationship between trust or believing ( you named it) and knowing, there will be seen that these two things related to one another.
i don't take any difference between these two things, but i see what kind of relation between them.
I have the same understanding with you about skeptics, but i have reason too why i'm skeptics.

maybe this argument looks a bit silly .... 8-[

if it is true that there was reincarnation ...
just take a look, why humans increased in number in this earth, if human can reincarnated to be whatever human like.
if True Source has a plan to do with this humanity why should people have to be reincarnated, it just a waste ...

then you can see, believing or trusting must have a relation with knowing ( logical things).

wassalam and GBU :heart:
saia
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby Nyampah » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:07 am

mungkin ada yg mengalami reinkarnasi ada yang ngga.. sementara jiwa - jiwa yg baru juga diciptakan.. jadi jumlah manusia fluktuatif.. gmn? =P~

mau nanya buat mr.blue lotus, reinkarnasi itu ada pangkalnya ngga si? maksudnya, awal awal terjadinya gitu.. then, apakah anda percaya konsep kiamat? ato apokalips ?
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby bluelotus » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:41 am

good morning, saia

back to you

i wonder if I look at the relationship between trust or believing ( you named it) and knowing, there will be seen that these two things related to one another.
i don't take any difference between these two things, but i see what kind of relation between them.
I have the same understanding with you about skeptics, but i have reason too why i'm skeptics.

maybe this argument looks a bit silly ....

if it is true that there was reincarnation ...
just take a look, why humans increased in number in this earth, if human can reincarnated to be whatever human like.
if True Source has a plan to do with this humanity why should people have to be reincarnated, it just a waste ...

then you can see, believing or trusting must have a relation with knowing ( logical things).

wassalam and GBU


your argument is confusing me ...

believing or trusting something does not make you knowing ...
knowing here is more than simply "taste something" ... there must also be understanding, including within it are learning ...

let me show give you an example, about electricity ...
supposedly, someone told you that electricity is SAFE, you can plug your fingers into the power plug and you'll be fine
and YOU BELIEVE THAT ... you're believing / trusting that doing so will not harm you ... you keep on living, until someday you are willing to die to defend your opinion, and you will die when someone challenges you to hug a extra high voltage cable ...

I on the other hand, know how it felt to be electrocuted, I read books about it, I discuss about it with friends, and I accidentally got electrocuted whilst repairing a VCR ...
now ... I know, electricity can be dangerous, and put your fingers into the power plug is a stupid thing ... because I KNOW it, I've tasted it and I have the knowledge about it

this is the difference between trusting and knowing, my friend ...

trusting and believing tends to make someone blind ...
simple example are our fellow muslims here ... I've debating them many many times about the atrocities done by muhammad ... followed by proof, still they BELIEVING / TRUSTING that he's a perfect man ...

thus they defend their faith with many silly reason ... I remembered kompas, which his heart / conscience told him that raping a 9 years old are evil and barbaric ... thus muhammad will not do that ... even when presented with proofs, he simply said that the hadith was muallal ...

clearly, His heart told him that the action was barbaric, but his "TRUST / BELIEF" told him otherwise ... and he's willing to die to defend it ...

do not follow something blindly, my friend ... READ, SEEK KNOWLEDGE with OPEN MIND, always open to all new possibilities, and ENJOY

KNOWING are very much different than simply believing ... believing / trusting makes you BLIND, closed yourself into other's opinion, and someday, you'll be willing to die for mere "belief / trust"

knowing will set you FREE ...

will add something

if it is true that there was reincarnation ...
just take a look, why humans increased in number in this earth, if human can reincarnated to be whatever human like.
if True Source has a plan to do with this humanity why should people have to be reincarnated, it just a waste ...


it is true, my friend ...
many books are on this subject, and I personally have experienced it myself ...

why humans increased in number ??

1. everything are on its way back home to True Source
2. do you know how many animals there slain by humans ?? how their population are declining ... they're also evolving, you know ...
3. do you know that there are many realms created by the True Source ? how many are their inhabitants ?
4. do you know the terms "migration" ?

if True Source has a plan to do with this humanity why should people have to be reincarnated, it just a waste ...


saia, answer me honestly ...
do you believe that in your life your good deeds outweigh the bad ones ?? do you dare to guarantee yourself that you will enter paradise after you die ??
how many of us believe himself to be pure, kind, without any mistakes to anyone ? and dare to guarantee himself a paradise in the next life ??

secondly ... after reviewing above ... do you prefer a god, who said that he's kind, loving, benevolent, bu will burn you for eternity when you made mistakes, wanted to be praised, said himself to be kind, but takes revenge, said to be god of all, but have favourites ...

or the One who loves you and always gave you second chance for you to reform, to pay your debts and later on to come home no matter what color are you, what religion are you or what stupid actions you've done ...

reincarnation is a proof that True Source is indeed MAHA PENGASIH DAN MAHA PENYAYANG ... True Source's action by always providing second chance for all to reform, to be better, to purify themselves, so someday they may be coming home to the Purest of All ... True Source

this action is indeed in line with LOVE, unconditional love ... always forgiving, always loving ... never demanding to be praised, to be pleased, free from hatred, anger, lust ...

not with allah, who declared himself to be rahman & rahim, but his actions speaks otherwise ...

@ nyampah

mungkin ada yg mengalami reinkarnasi ada yang ngga.. sementara jiwa - jiwa yg baru juga diciptakan.. jadi jumlah manusia fluktuatif.. gmn?

mau nanya buat mr.blue lotus, reinkarnasi itu ada pangkalnya ngga si? maksudnya, awal awal terjadinya gitu.. then, apakah anda percaya konsep kiamat? ato apokalips ?


you asked a deep question here, my friend ... pardon me for answering in short answer :turban:
there is a truth in your 1st line ... human being are indeed fluctuative in number ...

secondly, you asked about reincarnation has a beginning ... my answer is YES
about apocalypse : YES, also

but remember ... apocalypse has happened and NOT once ... but many times already ...
this world, this earth will passed someday, also ...

simply the end of all life on earth does not mean all life in the universe are ended
simply the desctruction of the universe does not mean all other realms are also destroyed
simply the nonexistent of everything, does not mean that there will be another :turban:
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby saia » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:40 pm

Dear my friend, bluelotus ...

I apologize if i makes things seem confusing at all

your argument is confusing me ...

believing or trusting something does not make you knowing ...
knowing here is more than simply "taste something" ... there must also be understanding, including within it are learning ...

let me show give you an example, about electricity ...
supposedly, someone told you that electricity is SAFE, you can plug your fingers into the power plug and you'll be fine
and YOU BELIEVE THAT ... you're believing / trusting that doing so will not harm you ... you keep on living, until someday you are willing to die to defend your opinion, and you will die when someone challenges you to hug a extra high voltage cable ...

I on the other hand, know how it felt to be electrocuted, I read books about it, I discuss about it with friends, and I accidentally got electrocuted whilst repairing a VCR ...
now ... I know, electricity can be dangerous, and put your fingers into the power plug is a stupid thing ... because I KNOW it, I've tasted it and I have the knowledge about it

this is the difference between trusting and knowing, my friend ...


yes, it's true, indeed ... but the point I want to talk that believe(ing) and know(ing) is things are interconnected.
but somehow, people just take believing and then knowing without valuable source.
your comparisson was true but only for infants or children who are still in the learning stages of knowing and studying... no offense buddy O:)
we're talking bout reincarnated right??
if someone told you, "hey i was animal being before this life" ... wow that freakish thing i ever heard.
I will not believe until I experienced it, then maybe you can told me, "hey, you will never realize that you're reincarnated" ....
in budhist, when people died, only his mind and not his spirit leaving his/her body ...(i'm sorry if i wrong, but I'm digesting it when one of bhante talked about life after death with me), logically if I die and be reincarnated into another life form, why i forgot anything what i done before this life??


trusting and believing tends to make someone blind ...
simple example are our fellow muslims here ... I've debating them many many times about the atrocities done by muhammad ... followed by proof, still they BELIEVING / TRUSTING that he's a perfect man ...

thus they defend their faith with many silly reason ... I remembered kompas, which his heart / conscience told him that raping a 9 years old are evil and barbaric ... thus muhammad will not do that ... even when presented with proofs, he simply said that the hadith was muallal ...

clearly, His heart told him that the action was barbaric, but his "TRUST / BELIEF" told him otherwise ... and he's willing to die to defend it ...

do not follow something blindly, my friend ... READ, SEEK KNOWLEDGE with OPEN MIND, always open to all new possibilities, and ENJOY

KNOWING are very much different than simply believing ... believing / trusting makes you BLIND, closed yourself into other's opinion, and someday, you'll be willing to die for mere "belief / trust"

knowing will set you FREE ...


of course you will not find any meaningful things while you had discussions with them although any of them has true open mind 8-[
but i really can say this ...

we can see and know from the prophets preceding prophets, none of those who said there was a kind of heaven from God, only one Man who can promise us heaven, maybe you know who it is but He's not muhammad, logically we could believe what His promised because there aren't any people such Man like this who willing to die for you, can you imagine that??


why humans increased in number ??

1. everything are on its way back home to True Source
2. do you know how many animals there slain by humans ?? how their population are declining ... they're also evolving, you know ...
3. do you know that there are many realms created by the True Source ? how many are their inhabitants ?
4. do you know the terms "migration" ?


1. i don't see any corelation why humans increased in number
2. yes, a lot of them, but can we see the chicken, pork or maybe beef that we eat everyday?? how many reincarnations will happen if every day a lot of chicken, pig and cattle died?? or maybe you know what happen in WWII, millon people died, whether they are reincarnated?? are there any population explosion habitats of living things after the war was over??
3. i don't know, do you??
4. same with no 1, i know what migration is ...

anyway, thanks for your replied, i appreciate it. Initially I did not expect an answer from you ... because these has nothing to do with the topics discussed. hehehehe ... :heart:
saia
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby saia » Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:08 pm

Oh i forgot this ...

saia, answer me honestly ...
do you believe that in your life your good deeds outweigh the bad ones ?? do you dare to guarantee yourself that you will enter paradise after you die ??
how many of us believe himself to be pure, kind, without any mistakes to anyone ? and dare to guarantee himself a paradise in the next life ??

secondly ... after reviewing above ... do you prefer a god, who said that he's kind, loving, benevolent, bu will burn you for eternity when you made mistakes, wanted to be praised, said himself to be kind, but takes revenge, said to be god of all, but have favourites ...

or the One who loves you and always gave you second chance for you to reform, to pay your debts and later on to come home no matter what color are you, what religion are you or what stupid actions you've done ...

reincarnation is a proof that True Source is indeed MAHA PENGASIH DAN MAHA PENYAYANG ... True Source's action by always providing second chance for all to reform, to be better, to purify themselves, so someday they may be coming home to the Purest of All ... True Source

this action is indeed in line with LOVE, unconditional love ... always forgiving, always loving ... never demanding to be praised, to be pleased, free from hatred, anger, lust ...

not with allah, who declared himself to be rahman & rahim, but his actions speaks otherwise ...


i do not believed such kind of god, who was kind but cursed people, loving but deceiver, benevolent but no tolerance and no have respect attibute ...
haa, I know what kind of god like that, that must be allah, right?? xixixixixi ....

i believed The God, who was always be there when i grieved, always said to me " I Love You", and so on so on, but who am i questioned God's gracious ...
i don't believe reincarnation but i believed incarnation and that what God capable to do, not human.

wassalam :heart:
saia
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby bluelotus » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:13 pm

nice to talk to you, saia

this is my thread, and I am sharing what I know ... also in relation to Islam and connected with why I am leaving it ... thus all discussions are welcome ...

we're talking bout reincarnated right??
if someone told you, "hey i was animal being before this life" ... wow that freakish thing i ever heard.
I will not believe until I experienced it, then maybe you can told me, "hey, you will never realize that you're reincarnated" ....
in budhist, when people died, only his mind and not his spirit leaving his/her body ...(i'm sorry if i wrong, but I'm digesting it when one of bhante talked about life after death with me), logically if I die and be reincarnated into another life form, why i forgot anything what i done before this life??


no offense at all, my friend ...
now, read carefully, as I am about to divulge something beautiful ...

simply said, we human consists of 3 elements ... body, soul, and True Self
True Self is the spark of True Source within everyone, in fact it existed in everything :green:
we're focusing on body and soul, first ...

why did you forgot anything in your past life ??
because you haven't reach soul consciusness ...
it's like I gave you a hard disk ... you need a PC to know what it contains ...
you know the physical form, but not the data stored inside ... buy your PC first, my friend ...

in its journey, souls passing through many many lives, many many roles, as you changed your clothes everyday ...
soon after you die, your body start to decompose, all bodily memories are turned into natural elements as your brain decompose ...
but memories kept by your soul are intact ... memories from thousands / millions of lives ... you simply did not know how to access it. Hypnotherapy sometimes helps, but not always, especially when our huge ego stands in the way ...

may I recommend the book "Many lives, many masters" ... for light reading ?

thus I never force anyone to believe me, what I felt, what I experienced is solely for me ...
I have the honor to be able to access my soul consciusness, thus I know for sure about reincarnation ... and I found it very very very beautiful ... I enjoyed singing and dancing for The One I Love ... doesnot matter to me whether you like it or not, or whether someone joins me or not ...

now ... when you understand about reincarnation ... I must put a warning sign ... "be careful here ... "
understanding this will guide you to be more compassionate towards other, including animals, as you know that they also on their journey home to True Source ... what separates us from it is simply THE DISTANCE ... we're closer ... that's is and nothing to brag about ...

but this knowledge may also makes you lazy ...
you know this and choose to be lazy ... if my business cannot be finished in this lifetime... I'll wait for the next ...
something like that ...

see India ... most of their population knows about reincarnation ... and now some of the best products of human knowledge coming from them ... if you ever read veda, you'll know what I mean ... so much of human knowledge, as wrote by Vyasa-Krishna ...

but it also produces world-class-lazy- person ...

but what can we say ?? perhaps it's a system of balance ... hahahahaa :green:

we can see and know from the prophets preceding prophets, none of those who said there was a kind of heaven from God, only one Man who can promise us heaven, maybe you know who it is but He's not muhammad, logically we could believe what His promised because there aren't any people such Man like this who willing to die for you, can you imagine that??


I admire and revere Jesus ... he's a great friend, and Great Master ... anyone fails to see the Light of True Source within Jesus should have his eyes examined ...
He taught us to love, to forgive 70 x 7 x 7 times ... that's 3,430 times more than muhammad, who killed at first insult
never seek worldly wealth, heals the sick, help the needy ...

and I do know facts about Jesus many did not know ... but let's not discuss it here ...
thus I called Him not as Tuhan ... but as Master or Guru ... actually I prefer called Him "Guruji" ... some kind of more polite name for Guru

1. i don't see any corelation why humans increased in number
2. yes, a lot of them, but can we see the chicken, pork or maybe beef that we eat everyday?? how many reincarnations will happen if every day a lot of chicken, pig and cattle died?? or maybe you know what happen in WWII, millon people died, whether they are reincarnated?? are there any population explosion habitats of living things after the war was over??
3. i don't know, do you??
4. same with no 1, i know what migration is ...


do not treat my response as separate answer ... all are in line with another ...

about chickens, pigs, cows ... this one related to karmic law ...
doing something good means to evolve into another better form ...
not doing it ... means starting all over again ...

in human terms ... what you sow, you reap ...

have you ever noticed dogs, for example ...
some are plain stupid ... some are smart ... some are extremely smart, that they can feel and respond to human emotion
thus you should aware that even though all of them are dogs, they're on different stages of evolution in terms of soul

there are realms higher than ours ... many religions called it "deity realms" or "alam dewa" ... "angel realms"
and also realms lower than ours ... trapped souls realm, demon realms, etc ...

and my friend ... reincarnation does not always mean that you'll be born on this earth ... with so many planets in the universe, so many realms and dimension, you could be reborn into another world, another planet, another dimension ...
so are with another realms / dimensions / worlds inhabitants ...

even though souls usually only moves around his karmic position (means he usually not gone very far) :green:
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby saia » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:15 am

no offense at all, my friend ...
now, read carefully, as I am about to divulge something beautiful ...

simply said, we human consists of 3 elements ... body, soul, and True Self
True Self is the spark of True Source within everyone, in fact it existed in everything
we're focusing on body and soul, first ...

why did you forgot anything in your past life ??
because you haven't reach soul consciusness ...
it's like I gave you a hard disk ... you need a PC to know what it contains ...
you know the physical form, but not the data stored inside ... buy your PC first, my friend ...

in its journey, souls passing through many many lives, many many roles, as you changed your clothes everyday ...
soon after you die, your body start to decompose, all bodily memories are turned into natural elements as your brain decompose ...
but memories kept by your soul are intact ... memories from thousands / millions of lives ... you simply did not know how to access it. Hypnotherapy sometimes helps, but not always, especially when our huge ego stands in the way ...


but my friend, it's all beyond our understanding.
i clearly thought that comprehension of reincarnation was result of the philosophical thinking or maybe mysticism.
it all comes from the observation of our lives everyday, there is a cycle of life.So they conclude that there is another life after we die, but until when all that could stop??
there are things that called skandhas( i believed you knowed it), which means there are five groups or i can called it five different elements
1. physical body
2. feelings
3. senses
4. desire/wish/will
5. awareness/realization/consciousness
so skandhas were form a personality ... but try to think of it, whether animals and plants has skandhas?? are they forgot there are thing called instinct??
if the purpose of human existence is to gain self-knowledge and enlightenment, we can get it that after we die because there was a God who gave it all for us for free ... O:)

may I recommend the book "Many lives, many masters" ... for light reading ?

thus I never force anyone to believe me, what I felt, what I experienced is solely for me ...
I have the honor to be able to access my soul consciusness, thus I know for sure about reincarnation ... and I found it very very very beautiful ... I enjoyed singing and dancing for The One I Love ... doesnot matter to me whether you like it or not, or whether someone joins me or not ...

now ... when you understand about reincarnation ... I must put a warning sign ... "be careful here ... "
understanding this will guide you to be more compassionate towards other, including animals, as you know that they also on their journey home to True Source ... what separates us from it is simply THE DISTANCE ... we're closer ... that's is and nothing to brag about ...

but this knowledge may also makes you lazy ...
you know this and choose to be lazy ... if my business cannot be finished in this lifetime... I'll wait for the next ...
something like that ...

see India ... most of their population knows about reincarnation ... and now some of the best products of human knowledge coming from them ... if you ever read veda, you'll know what I mean ... so much of human knowledge, as wrote by Vyasa-Krishna ...

but it also produces world-class-lazy- person ...

but what can we say ?? perhaps it's a system of balance ... hahahahaa


it's quite funny 8-[
Can I recommended you to read the book of psychopath?? there is a kind of human personality which according to the norms of society is deviant behavior.
psyco is not a trait of insanity nor gene and chromosomal abnormalities, but it's the other forms of the human person itself. they born to be like that.it is the result of "karma" from previous lives?? I don't think so ...

do not treat my response as separate answer ... all are in line with another ...

about chickens, pigs, cows ... this one related to karmic law ...
doing something good means to evolve into another better form ...
not doing it ... means starting all over again ...

in human terms ... what you sow, you reap ...

have you ever noticed dogs, for example ...
some are plain stupid ... some are smart ... some are extremely smart, that they can feel and respond to human emotion
thus you should aware that even though all of them are dogs, they're on different stages of evolution in terms of soul

there are realms higher than ours ... many religions called it "deity realms" or "alam dewa" ... "angel realms"
and also realms lower than ours ... trapped souls realm, demon realms, etc ...

and my friend ... reincarnation does not always mean that you'll be born on this earth ... with so many planets in the universe, so many realms and dimension, you could be reborn into another world, another planet, another dimension ...
so are with another realms / dimensions / worlds inhabitants ...

even though souls usually only moves around his karmic position (means he usually not gone very far)


wow, do you believe there was an exterrestial(did i spell wrong?? hahaha ..) life beyond us??
saia
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby saia » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:24 am

Oh, i almost forgot

These three days I could not reply you posted, cause i'm going home for Easter.

Happy Easter my friend, God Bless U :heart:
saia
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby Sima » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:44 am

Nice thread, bluelotus :)

think i am couple of steps behind you, but not sure i will end up at the same place.
You probably are aware that there are a lot of people who have gone through the same path as you, but at the end have different conclusions or understanding about "everything". To my small brain, it seems more like,"the truth is a matter of what is more convincing". And what is more convincing depends a lot on one's experience. I don't like this thinking but I cannot prove it wrong either.
Anyway, that was nothing :). Like your post a lot.

PS: I wish I also have had a warm welcome from the other netters here on my first thread like you had here :(
The difference is you started your thread standing on their side, and I did not (I claimed to be neutral, heheheh).
Sima
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby bluelotus » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:48 am

hello saia

but my friend, it's all beyond our understanding.
i clearly thought that comprehension of reincarnation was result of the philosophical thinking or maybe mysticism.
it all comes from the observation of our lives everyday, there is a cycle of life.So they conclude that there is another life after we die, but until when all that could stop??


beyond whose understanding ? mine or yours ?? please do not generalise things ...
just because you cannot see x rays does not necessarily it does not exist ... this is where you get me wrong
I've had near death experience, I've seen my past lives, seen facts in my past lives that I've checked with the experts only known by people lived at that moment ...

it's not concluded by looking at the nature ... I conclude it first, and when my awareness expanding, I see same practice everywhere, including in the nature ...

when it will stop ? whose ?? yours or mine ?? or the entire existence ??
the answer is : when it's time to stop

5 skandhas
1. physical body
2. feelings
3. senses
4. desire/wish/will
5. awareness/realization/consciousness

so skandhas were form a personality ... but try to think of it, whether animals and plants has skandhas?? are they forgot there are thing called instinct??


skandha is not a personality ... it is part of what makes us be ...
animals and plants are on different stage of evolution (both physical and spiritual) from us ...

check above ... does animals have senses ? yes ... desires ? yes ... physical body ? yes ... feelings ? some had ... some don't
does plants have senses ? yes ... they can sense light, dark, moisture ... physical body ... yes ..

so ... what's the point of your question ?
it's quite funny
Can I recommended you to read the book of psychopath?? there is a kind of human personality which according to the norms of society is deviant behavior.
psyco is not a trait of insanity nor gene and chromosomal abnormalities, but it's the other forms of the human person itself. they born to be like that.it is the result of "karma" from previous lives?? I don't think so ...


it's OK ... I did not try to convince you to what I know here ...
I have huge collection of books, including psychology ... I know what neurotic and psychotic are ...

my friend, do you believe that your God is most just (MAHA ADIL)
then how come someone born with disability ?? how come someone born in poor family ?? how come someone born in wealthy one ?? seen from logic ... their burden is NOT the same, right ... then the God is not just, right ??

then ... as if you said ... when someone becoming pyshotic (bipolar personality, schizophrenic) ... whilst he led a normal life before ?? why do you think it happened ??

and why you don't suffer from it, too ?? God surely must be just, right ??

wow, do you believe there was an exterrestial(did i spell wrong?? hahaha ..) life beyond us??


you missed an "r" there ... should be extraterrestrial ... hahahahaaa

but I think I meant lifeform in another place ...

my friend, it is estimated that there were 80 billion of galaxies in the universe ...
that's 80,000,000,000 ... with estimated 3 to 7 × 10(e22) stars

that's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars ...
our sun is just ONE dwarf star in the our galaxy ...

let say in 100 million stars, there are one which had planets that supports life
that left 700,000,000,000,000 stars with planets that contains life ... that's seven hundred trillions planets ... how many of them have intelligent life form ??

and you seriously think that life only exist on earth ?? we're just a tiny speck of dust in the universe, my friend

regarding other realms, I have the privilege to know them for details ... seen them with mine own eyes, and I did not expect you to believe me ... :turban:
it's like I've been to egypt and you did not believe that egypt existed ....
bluelotus
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby bluelotus » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:46 pm

Sima wrote:Nice thread, bluelotus :)

think i am couple of steps behind you, but not sure i will end up at the same place.
You probably are aware that there are a lot of people who have gone through the same path as you, but at the end have different conclusions or understanding about "everything". To my small brain, it seems more like,"the truth is a matter of what is more convincing". And what is more convincing depends a lot on one's experience. I don't like this thinking but I cannot prove it wrong either.
Anyway, that was nothing :). Like your post a lot.

PS: I wish I also have had a warm welcome from the other netters here on my first thread like you had here :(
The difference is you started your thread standing on their side, and I did not (I claimed to be neutral, heheheh).


thank you, Sima ...

on the contrary, many of my friend starting from whole different starting point and reach the same conclusion ...

do you familiar with story of 5 blind men vs elephant ...

1st one holding the tail and said that the elephant is like a rope
2nd one holding its leg and said that elephant is like a tree trunk
3rd one holding its trunk and said that elephant is like a rubber hose
4th one holding its body and said that elephant is like a stone boulder
5th one holding its ear and said that the elephant is like a huge fan

and then they have argument and thought that their answer is the correct one ... this is the beginning
or is it ??

spiritualist is a normal person, lack of perfection, but he use his time to contemplate, to explore, to examine, to share, rather than continue debating who's right or wrong ...

in above case, he won't stop by holding its tail .. he'll move around, comparing with others finding and found the TRUTH ...

Truth is ONE ... why you came with different conclusion ? because you're seeing it in your point of view ALONE ...

Truth is not as simple as the most convincing one ... if that's the criteria, then everything said by an insurance salesman / car salesman is TRUTH ?? :rolling: :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

You have to examine, delve deeper, share (don't be stingy), ask another if you don't understand, check their answers and contemplate it ... read more, gather more information from all sides and lastly ... YOU HAVE TO EXPERIENCE it ... :turban: :turban:

and remember ... humility IS important ... I never said that I know the whole elephant ... I just said that I knew it quite well and I simply know it first ...


welcome aboard, Sima ...
Bluelotus wish you all the best :turban:
semoga petunjuk saya bisa mencerahkan anda :turban:
bluelotus
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby yaser » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:13 pm

Hello There :)
It's Been A While..
I See The Topic Have Gone Everywhere..

If I Wasn't Mistaken, By Glance Reading, You Know That You're Living Before, In Other Body etc..

Well, That's New..
I've Never Expected That From You..

Just How You Knew That..?
Did You Have Your Self Hipnotized To Unveil Your 'Life Before'..?
If So, How Can You Be Sure Of It, I Mean.. How Come You Be Certain Of Things You Saw is Your Life Before This Life..?

bluelotus wrote:why did you forgot anything in your past life ??
because you haven't reach soul consciusness ...


Was That Mean That Once You Reach Consciousness, You'll No Longer Be Reincarnated..?

Did You Say That We All, Inside Are The Same With Animals Like Dogs And Cats, Just A Lil' Bit Lucky To Be A Human..?
(Can You Understand My Question..?)

bluelotus wrote:so are with another realms / dimensions / worlds inhabitants ...


About Realm, I Prefer To Think Of It Like This..
We, Human And Other Things Live In One Realm, Our Three Dimensional Universe Plus One Time Dimensional.. While Djinn, Iblis And Syaithan Are Now In Another Realm.. Hell And Heaven Are Also In Their Own Realm..
In Every Realm, Nothing Is Similar To Another..
Like Time In Our Realm Are Different With Time In Heaven..
In Quran Said That A Day On Heaven Are The Same With 1.000 Years Of Earth..
etc.. etc..

Just A Simple Thought I Guess, But The Poin Is, I Still Cannot Accept The Idea Of Paralel Universe Like In The Movie 'The One'.. (Have You Watch..?)
The Idea Of Many Realm With Many Of Us In Every Of It.. Thats What I Don't Prefer To Choose :D
May It's Because I'm Naturally A Muslim Anyway :turban:

saia wrote:wow, do you believe there was an exterrestial(did i spell wrong?? hahaha ..) life beyond us??


I Don't Know About It..
But I Rather Not Believing In It..
Did God Create This Gigantic Universe In Vain To Only Have One Planet That Consist Of Human..? I Don't Think So..
Firstable.. It's Not Difficult For God To Create This Universe..
Secondly.. Human Are Somehow Affected By Macro Universe As Well As Affected By Micro's..

Again.. My Opinion Base On My Lack Of Knowledge..

What Do You Think About My Thought..? :turban:

Any Prove To Support That Reincarnation Is True..? (I Know That You're Not Try To Confince Anyone.. But I Want To Convince My Self)

I've Read Once That This UFO Propaganda Was Made By Iblis' Accomplice In Our Realm (These Accomplice Are Now Holding A Huge Power In The World) , That Iblis One Day Would Reveal Him Self As An Alien Savior Of The Earth.. Wallahu 'Alam..

Maybe We Can Discuse About These (UFOs And Realms) Deeper Oneday..

Thanks....
yaser
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby bluelotus » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:27 pm

well Yaser

welcome back to my thread
happy to see you in perfect health today

back to our discussion :

If I Wasn't Mistaken, By Glance Reading, You Know That You're Living Before, In Other Body etc..

Well, That's New..
I've Never Expected That From You..

Just How You Knew That..?
Did You Have Your Self Hipnotized To Unveil Your 'Life Before'..?
If So, How Can You Be Sure Of It, I Mean.. How Come You Be Certain Of Things You Saw is Your Life Before This Life..?


you're not mistaken ... I've seen my past lives
ada banyak method, Yaser ... dan ini sudah dilakukan oleh banyak expert dan Guru di seluruh dunia
method yang saya pakai berasal dari ancient method, salah satu yang paling safe

saya perlu cerita ke anda dahulu, bahwa sejak kecil saya sering dapat semacam "vision" tentang tempat dan yang tak saya kenal ... yang kemudian saya lihat lagi dalam kehidupan masa kini

salah satu adalah kisah waktu Taleban hancurkan buddha statue di Bamiyan ... saya ingat saya dulu pernah berdiri di salah satu bukit, lihat ke arah lembah, banyak rumah kecil-kecil dan vihara yang besar sekali ... dan buddha statue itu, aslinya warna emas dengan banyak ornament ...

kenapa bisa so sure ? karena dalam journey to my past, saya lihat banyak data dan fakta yang saya tahu, yang sebelumnya saya tidak tahu, dan fakta itu bisa dicompare dengan data historic ... seperti pakaian, suasana, lokasi, kebiasaan manusia di jaman itu, yang tak mungkin saya tahu dari buku sebelumnya


Was That Mean That Once You Reach Consciousness, You'll No Longer Be Reincarnated..?


nope ...
we're no longer reincarnated when we truly coming home to True Source ... merely knowing is never enough

Did You Say That We All, Inside Are The Same With Animals Like Dogs And Cats, Just A Lil' Bit Lucky To Be A Human..?
(Can You Understand My Question..?)


This is a very deep understanding, to know and realize that True Souce is never far ... True Source is EVERYWHERE ... we're part of True Source ... including animals, plants, even minerals

everything are in its journey back to True Source ...

if you look at animals ... talk to dog lovers ... they'll told you that even dogs had characters ... some are friendly, some are oddly too clever for animals, some are just plain dumb ...

so is with other animals ... recent research shows that beavers do have feelings and emotions, they cried over their youngster's dead body for hours

there's no luck my friend ... there's only option ... what you choose is what you've become
if in this life you're trapped in greed ... what you'll become in the next life is correspond with you now

what you sow, you reap
if you want to see your future, see yourself now ... do you sow enough goodness ??
if you want to see your past, see yourself now ... is it the fruit of good deeds that you are born healthy, have enough food, etc ??

so is with evolution of souls ... the closer one's soul to the True Source, the more advanced it's ability to comprehend
thus for some of our friend who trapped in emotion, arrogance ... you may know what level their souls are :turban:

About Realm, I Prefer To Think Of It Like This..
We, Human And Other Things Live In One Realm, Our Three Dimensional Universe Plus One Time Dimensional.. While Djinn, Iblis And Syaithan Are Now In Another Realm.. Hell And Heaven Are Also In Their Own Realm..
In Every Realm, Nothing Is Similar To Another..
Like Time In Our Realm Are Different With Time In Heaven..
In Quran Said That A Day On Heaven Are The Same With 1.000 Years Of Earth..
etc.. etc..


don't think ... feel it... taste it ...
there are many realms above ours and below ours

simply I said that realms above us are the realms of Gods / Goddesses or Realms of Angels, Spiritual Beings, etc
and lower realms is for those keep their distance to True Source ...

about a day in heaven, etc ... Quran have a lot of contradictions ...


Just A Simple Thought I Guess, But The Poin Is, I Still Cannot Accept The Idea Of Paralel Universe Like In The Movie 'The One'.. (Have You Watch..?)
The Idea Of Many Realm With Many Of Us In Every Of It.. Thats What I Don't Prefer To Choose :D
May It's Because I'm Naturally A Muslim Anyway


haven't watched it yet

Yaser, if being muslim leads you to everything good ... I'd still be muslim
I choose to be HUMAN BEING, and I learnt to be good, to be loving, full of compassion, instead being a muslim, christian, buddhist ...

what is the use of any religion if it separates you from other human being ?? if it makes you think you're superior, better than others ... it's only arrogance, even when covered with sweet lies ...

I Don't Know About It..
But I Rather Not Believing In It..
Did God Create This Gigantic Universe In Vain To Only Have One Planet That Consist Of Human..? I Don't Think So..
Firstable.. It's Not Difficult For God To Create This Universe..
Secondly.. Human Are Somehow Affected By Macro Universe As Well As Affected By Micro's..

Again.. My Opinion Base On My Lack Of Knowledge..

What Do You Think About My Thought..?


you don't have to believe ... and as I did ... I did not care ...
but the thought that there may be other intelligent living being somewhere in the universe CAN be used to teach humankind some humility ... they should know that they're may not be that special ... not the most clever creation, the best creation, thus they learn to seek within and found peace ...

Any Prove To Support That Reincarnation Is True..? (I Know That You're Not Try To Confince Anyone.. But I Want To Convince My Self)


It is true, Yaser
saya baca di bible

"Jesus kata "mereka nanti kedatangan Eliah, tapi mereka tak tahu bahwa Eliah sudah disini, mereka hanya tak mengenalnya" ... pada saat itu His disciples tahu bahwa Jesus bicarakan tentang John the Baptist ... "

saya tak perlu buka kitab Hindu dan Buddhist, bukan ... mereka blatantly bahkan jelaskan process reincarnation
cuba anda ke toko buku, carilah buku "many lives, many masters" ... ini kira-kira IDR 30,000 ... tak mahal, but ini ditulis berdasar research ilmiah

ada banyak proof tentang reincarnation dan it SHOULD not bothering you ...
reincarnation adalah bukti bahwa True Source Maha Pengasih dan Maha Penyayang ... kita diberi countless opportunities untuk sadar, berbuat baik tiap hari, perbaiki kesalahan ... sucikan dan bersihkan diri ... sampai akhirnya kita bisa pulang dengan raport yang baik ... :turban:
ini juga jelaskan kenapa ada yang lahir kaya, miskin, sakit, cacat ... kenapa jalan hidup satu orang beda dengan yang lain, etc

Reincarnation is the proof bahwa True Source SUNGGUH Maha Adil, Maha Pengasih dan Penyayang ... tak siksa ini itu, tak minta disembah, memberi unconditional love (kasih tanpa syarat)

I've Read Once That This UFO Propaganda Was Made By Iblis' Accomplice In Our Realm (These Accomplice Are Now Holding A Huge Power In The World) , That Iblis One Day Would Reveal Him Self As An Alien Savior Of The Earth.. Wallahu 'Alam..


nope ...
hanya pengecut yang cari excuses ... manusia benar berani hadapi kesalahan dia dan perbaiki ...

contoh : saya bunuh tetangga saya ... saya cari excuses ... oh saya dirasuk iblis, jadi saya begitu ....
dunia penuh kejahatan ... oh ini conspiracy ini itu ini itu ...

ini adalah pola pikir orang lazy (malas) dan coward (pengecut)
dari pada anda guna waktu pikir conspiracy theory ... DO SOMETHING to make our world a better place ...
kalau anda salah, PERBAIKI kesalahan anda, daripada kambing hitam kan iblis ... :turban:

semoga anda dapat pencerahan baru, Yaser :turban:
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby saia » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:57 pm

Hello Bluelotus
beyond whose understanding ? mine or yours ?? please do not generalise things ...
just because you cannot see x rays does not necessarily it does not exist ... this is where you get me wrong
I've had near death experience, I've seen my past lives, seen facts in my past lives that I've checked with the experts only known by people lived at that moment ...

it's not concluded by looking at the nature ... I conclude it first, and when my awareness expanding, I see same practice everywhere, including in the nature ...

when it will stop ? whose ?? yours or mine ?? or the entire existence ??
the answer is : when it's time to stop


honestly, I was amazed at your horrible experience. but my friend, on what rationale that you went through is a form of vision?? did you ever to think it just a DREAM??
I've seen people die and live again, they claimed to see the future?? do you believe on that?? if it is true that there was reicarnation, how can these people can look to the future although they do not pass through the phase of next reincarnation??
so i called it beyond our understanding include me and you.


skandha is not a personality ... it is part of what makes us be ...
animals and plants are on different stage of evolution (both physical and spiritual) from us ...

check above ... does animals have senses ? yes ... desires ? yes ... physical body ? yes ... feelings ? some had ... some don't
does plants have senses ? yes ... they can sense light, dark, moisture ... physical body ... yes ..

so ... what's the point of your question ?


please checked again what i posted before

so skandhas were form a personality ...


if the form of personality lost one of its constituent element, it's no longer called skandhas :green:

my point is ...
skandhas distinguishes us as animals and plants, with elements that I mentioned earlier.
all combined to create a personal who can think, manner or an intelegence. let's see, if a monkey can be trained to count then how a dogs could not be trained like that?? monkeys and dogs has same senses, desires, physical bodys, and feelings right??
how come the creature which can through a phase of reincarnation doesn't has anythings like that?? just like your said

why did you forgot anything in your past life ??
because you haven't reach soul consciusness ...
it's like I gave you a hard disk ... you need a PC to know what it contains ...
you know the physical form, but not the data stored inside ... buy your PC first, my friend ...


then how come animals or plants form doesn't have intelegence as human although they have same elements??

it's OK ... I did not try to convince you to what I know here ...
I have huge collection of books, including psychology ... I know what neurotic and psychotic are ...

my friend, do you believe that your God is most just (MAHA ADIL)
then how come someone born with disability ?? how come someone born in poor family ?? how come someone born in wealthy one ?? seen from logic ... their burden is NOT the same, right ... then the God is not just, right ??

then ... as if you said ... when someone becoming pyshotic (bipolar personality, schizophrenic) ... whilst he led a normal life before ?? why do you think it happened ??

and why you don't suffer from it, too ?? God surely must be just, right ??


my friend bluelotus,
Poor, rich, ugly, handsome, flawed, imperfect is part of God's justice. if we think justly without prejudice then we will see God's justice but if we think evil then that will be visible only injustice.
Did you ever think The God created someone with disability to became the most low-dignity?? did The God created someone born in poor family to become a thief?? did The God created someone born in wealthy one to become a arrogany, conceited one?? i don't think so...

Now let us look at from the standpoint of human
Disablities = a Bad thing
Rich/Wealthy = A Good thing
Poor = A Bad thing

that's right my friend ... it's a egocentric of human. what human doesn't know, The God know ...
even a mother who risked her life with your birth doesn't change her love for you if you born to be a abnormal live being/disablities.
The God created you perfect and love you even with the your defecticity, poorness and weakness.
( Dear God, now i missed my mother ... sigh ...)
Did you get it?? The God created us to help each other, to love others, instead of discriminating between His creations.


but I think I meant lifeform in another place ...

my friend, it is estimated that there were 80 billion of galaxies in the universe ...
that's 80,000,000,000 ... with estimated 3 to 7 × 10(e22) stars

that's 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars ...
our sun is just ONE dwarf star in the our galaxy ...

let say in 100 million stars, there are one which had planets that supports life
that left 700,000,000,000,000 stars with planets that contains life ... that's seven hundred trillions planets ... how many of them have intelligent life form ??

and you seriously think that life only exist on earth ?? we're just a tiny speck of dust in the universe, my friend

regarding other realms, I have the privilege to know them for details ... seen them with mine own eyes, and I did not expect you to believe me ...
it's like I've been to egypt and you did not believe that egypt existed ....


in this case, it's logical for me that an extraterrestrial beyond us. i had no doubt bout it. and i can't stand againts you for this one :green:
saia
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby saia » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:50 pm

yaser wrote:
I Don't Know About It..
But I Rather Not Believing In It..
Did God Create This Gigantic Universe In Vain To Only Have One Planet That Consist Of Human..? I Don't Think So..
Firstable.. It's Not Difficult For God To Create This Universe..
Secondly.. Human Are Somehow Affected By Macro Universe As Well As Affected By Micro's..

Again.. My Opinion Base On My Lack Of Knowledge..

What Do You Think About My Thought..?

Any Prove To Support That Reincarnation Is True..? (I Know That You're Not Try To Confince Anyone.. But I Want To Convince My Self)

I've Read Once That This UFO Propaganda Was Made By Iblis' Accomplice In Our Realm (These Accomplice Are Now Holding A Huge Power In The World) , That Iblis One Day Would Reveal Him Self As An Alien Savior Of The Earth.. Wallahu 'Alam..

Maybe We Can Discuse About These (UFOs And Realms) Deeper Oneday..

Thanks....

dear yaser,
jujur saia pusing lihat cara anda mempost tulisan, mengapa semua tulisan anda di awali huruf kapital pada setiap kata??
no offense just curious buddy ...

anda bisa lihat sendiri postingan saia dan bluelotus, saia pribadi tidak bisa meyakinkan anda bahwa reinkarnasi itu ada tapi saia sendiri tidak begitu percaya akan ada nya reinkarnasi... anda tinggal menilai darimana saja yg bisa membuat anda percaya bahwa reinkarnasi itu ada tapi saran saia gunakan logika juga ... jangan sampai orang menilai anda punya keyakinan buta.

Anda baca buku Dajjal ya?? sebaiknya buang jauh2 buku itu karena tidak ada manfaatnya


wassalam :heart:
saia
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby yaser » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:47 am

@Atas

Kebiasaan Aja Bro..
Susah Ngilanginnya :)

Bukan Buku Dajjal Bro..
Tapi Series 'The Arrivals'..
Fakta nya Terlalu Banyak Buat Dianggap Angin Lalu..
Pernah Liat Bro..?

saia wrote:anda bisa lihat sendiri postingan saia dan bluelotus, saia pribadi tidak bisa meyakinkan anda bahwa reinkarnasi itu ada tapi saia sendiri tidak begitu percaya akan ada nya reinkarnasi... anda tinggal menilai darimana saja yg bisa membuat anda percaya bahwa reinkarnasi itu ada tapi saran saia gunakan logika juga ... jangan sampai orang menilai anda punya keyakinan buta.


Klu Saya Sih Dari Awal Udah Di Cap Punya Keyakinan Buta Sebenarnya.. He.. He..

Sebenarnya Pnasaran Aja, Gimana Seorang Bisa Tau Hidupnya Di Masa Lalu.. Seandainya Pun Reinkarnasi Itu Ada..
Poin Anda Bagus Bro.. Gimana Mo Yakin Klu 'Vision' Itu Bukan Sejenis 'Mimpi'.. Atau De Ja Vu Mungkin.. ( Betul Ga Nih Tulisan DeJaVu nya..? )
yaser
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby MasTom » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:04 pm

bluelotus wrote:It is true, Yaser
saya baca di bible

"Jesus kata "mereka nanti kedatangan Eliah, tapi mereka tak tahu bahwa Eliah sudah disini, mereka hanya tak mengenalnya" ... pada saat itu His disciples tahu bahwa Jesus bicarakan tentang John the Baptist ... "


do you think this verse of bible says about re-incarnation?
so far, as a christian, I never care and never been taught about reincarnation
i am quoting from several commentaries that in my mind no one of them referring this verse as a proof of reincarnation.

e-sword:
Barnes Commentary on Mat_17:12
Elias is come already - That is, John the Baptist has come, in the spirit and power of Elias. See Luk_1:17.


Barnes Commentary on Mat 11:14
By this was evidently meant, not that he should appear “in person,” but that one should appear with a striking resemblance to him; or, as Luke Luk_1:17 expresses it, “in the spirit and power of Elijah.” But the Jews understood it differently.

Henry Commentary on Mat 11:7-15
[2.] In him the New Testament day began to dawn; for (Mat_11:14) This is Elias, that was for to come. John was as the loop that coupled the two Testaments; as Noah was Fibula utriusque mundi - the link connecting both worlds, so was he utriusque Testamenti - the link connecting both Testaments. The concluding prophecy of the Old Testament was, Behold, I will send you Elijah, Mal_4:5, Mal_4:6. Those words prophesied until John, and then, being turned into a history, they ceased to prophecy. First, Christ speaks of it as a great truth, that John the Baptist is the Elias of the New Testament; not Elias in propria persona - in his own person, as the carnal Jews expected; he denied that (Joh_1:21), but one that should come in the spirit and power of Elias (Luk_1:17), like him in temper and conversation, that should press repentance with terrors, and especially as it is in the prophecy, that should turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. Secondly, He speaks of it as a truth, which would not be easily apprehended by those whose expectations fastened upon the temporal kingdom of the Messiah, and introductions to it agreeable. Christ suspects the welcome of it, if ye will receive it. Not but that it was true, whether they would receive it or not, but he upbraids them with their prejudices, that they were backward to receive the greatest truths that were opposed to their sentiments, though never so favourable to their interests. Or, “If you will receive him, or if you will receive the ministry of John as that of the promised Elias, he will be an Elias to you, to turn you and prepare you for the Lord,” Note, Gospel truths are as they are received, a savour of life or death. Christ is a Saviour, and John an Elias, to those who will receive the truth concerning them.
MasTom
 
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby Aeon » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:56 am

@atas

bluelotus lagi not available bro..
sempat reply di thread orang lain, tapi terlalu sibuk buat njawab masalah 'reinkarnasi dalam injil' plus kemungkinan bahwa visinya tentang kehidupan yang lalu bukan cuma 'mimpi'..

peace @bluelotus..
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Re: My experience with Islam

Postby saia » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:48 pm

yaser wrote :
Poin Anda Bagus Bro.. Gimana Mo Yakin Klu 'Vision' Itu Bukan Sejenis 'Mimpi'.. Atau De Ja Vu Mungkin..


itu hanya pemikiran saia saja, mungkin bro lotus punya argumen lain yg lebih menarik, kita tunggu saja. Ok?? :heart:
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