. FFI | Document | Artikel | Forum | Wiki | Glossary | Prophet Muhammad Illustrated

Cerita pembunuhan di Hadis: benar atau palsu ?

Kesalahan, ketidak ajaiban, dan ketidaksesuaian dengan ilmu pengetahuan.

Cerita pembunuhan di Hadis: benar atau palsu ?

Postby ali18115 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:25 am

Dari http://indonesian.knowislam.info/forum/ ... =5695#5695
(Red)

Adadeh wrote:
Kamu sebenarnya sudah ketinggalan zaman kerana masih tidak mengetahui bahawa kisah pembunuhan diatas sudah dibuktikan sebagai cerita2 palsu

Okay, update me with your claim that those stories were untrue.


Since you ask for it, here it goes :

True Stories or Forgeries? The Killing of Abu 'Afak and Asma' bint Marwan?

Islamic Methodology of Reports' Evaluation
We must explain the methodology of Muslim scholars before we comment on any Islamic report. Take for example the news reported on Presidents today! If the Vice-President gives a certain statement concerning the opinion of the President in a certain matter, then this statement is transmitted by a member of the secretary to a journalists who published it in the newspaper, what is the value of this report?

Our answer is that it could be right or wrong and we cannot be sure unless we know the reliability of the source.
If we find that the report is indeed transmitted by the secretary member on authority of the Vice-President and that each of them is well known for accuracy in transmission and truthfulness in speech, how can we evaluate this report?

Our answer is that we tend to believe it.

This is exactly what Muslim scholars require in any report to be valid and its attribution to God's Messenger(PUBH) can be accepted. They actually add two more things; they must make sure that the report itself is not contradictory to other more authentic reports otherwise it will be considered eccentric! Also, they must exclude any hidden flaws in the text of the report, these flaws are detailed in specialized volumes of Hadîth.
Can we then accept the report as valid?

Not yet. After we had verified that the chain of transmitters is intact without interruption and that all reporters are honest, sane individuals, we must make sure that each reporter has received the report directly from the preceding one and that the report itself is in agreement with other authentic reports without flaws. The eminent hafiz Ibn Kathîr states that:

Authentic Hadith is the transmitted hadîth whose chain is continuous through transmission of an accurate sane memorizer on authority of an accurate sane memorizer till its termination without being eccentric or flawed.[1]

Is there a method more precise and meticulous than this?
There is no nation in the entire history that took care of reporting events and their verification as the Muslims have done. The Western Orientalist Bernard Lewis notes that :

From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.[2]

Then we talk about historical references written by Muslim authors. First of all, these books are not trustworthy references due to the fact that they do not follow proper methodology of transmission.
Imâm Ahmad ibn Hanbal sums up the Muslim point of view as regards the trustworthiness of the biographical reports when he declares that the biographies ...are not based on any principle.


The early Muslim scholars who compiled books of hadîth and scrutinized this particular field undertook thorough and painstaking investigations to determine the authenticity of the reports from the Holy Prophet's time by tracing them back to eye-witnesses of the time, through unbroken lines of reliable narrators. As a result, they never held a high opinion of the biographies whose authors had simply copied masses of reports without check or criticism. One such scholar of hadîth, Hafiz Zayn-ûd-Dîn of Irâq, says about the biographies as follows:

The student should know that the biographies contain all kinds of reports, both true and false.

We believe that this should make us depend only upon reliable sources that have been properly authenticated by Muslim specialists in the Hadith sciences.

The Killing of Abu 'Afak: Where is The Isnâd?
According to Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Ishâq, Abu 'Afak was a 120 years old Jewish man who had abused the Prophet(P) verbally, so the latter launched a raid under the command of Salîm Ibn 'Umaîr to kill him. We do know that Ibn Ishâq lived in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Hijra, as well as Al-Waqîdî from whom Ibn Sa'd (died 230 A.H.) copied the story of Abu 'Afak.

As explained above, the chain of reporters of the story from eye-witnesses of the event till Ibn Ishâq or Al-Waqîdî must be examined and verified. So, our legitimate question is: where is the isnâd (i.e., chain of reporters)?

Unfortunately, references of the Sîrah do not provide such information. Actually, we are told that this story has no isnâd at all; neither Ibn Ishâq (or his disciple Ibn Hîsham) nor Al-Waqîdî (or his disciple Ibn Sa'd) had provided such a thing! In this case, the story is rated by hadîth scholars as "...of no basis", indicating that it has reached the lowest degree of criticism regarding its isnâd. This is in fact a proper scientific position because we cannot accept such a problematic story without evidence.

In brief, we have no commitment to accept such a baseless story - according to scientific criteria of hadîth criticism - which strangely had appeared in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Hijra. We are therefore obliged to reject the story of the killing of Abu 'Afak by Salîm Ibn 'Umaîr at the Prophet’s command.

The Killing of Asma': True Story or Forgery?
Basically the charge is that the Prophet(P) had ordered the killing of Asma' when she insulted him with her poetry. As it is usually the case where the history of Islam and the character of the Prophet(P) is concerned, it is left to the Muslims to throw some light on authenticity of the story in which this incident is reported by the sources and educate the missionaries in matters which they have no clue about.

The story of the killing of Asma' bint Marwan is mentioned by Ibn Sa'd in Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir[3] and by the author of Kinz-ul-'Ummal under number 44131 who attributes it to Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adiyy and Ibn 'Asaker. What is interesting is that Ibn 'Adiyy mentions it in his book Al-Kamel on the authority of Ja'far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu'abi on authority of Ibn 'Abbas, and added that :

...this isnâd (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.[4]

It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in Al-'Ilal[5] and is listed among other flawed reports.

So according to its isnâd, the report is forged - because one of its reporters is notorious for fabricating hadîth. Hence, such a story is rejected and is better off being put into the trash can.

Prophetic Attitude Toward Women and Old Men in War
Here we are going to discuss the authentic Sunnah of the Holy Prophet(P) regarding women and old men in war. No baseless or forged reports are allowed here; we will only display authentic reports.
In brief, the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet(PUBH) prohibits the killing of women in war.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewish woman brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of God’s Apostle.[6]

The Prophet(PUBH) refused to kill a woman who did intentionally try to poison him, but the Christian missionaries, by using a fabricated story, wants us to believe that he ordered the killing of a woman who only abused him verbally. (note: in Islam a women can only be put to death if she commited murder as crime, for murder is (both for men and women) death punishment in islam).


Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Messenger of God (peace be upon him) saw the corpse of a woman who had been slain in one of the raids, and he disapproved of it and forbade the killing of women and children.[7]
Due to this prohibition, scholars of Abu Hanîfah’s madhâb (school of thought) have stated that apostate women are not to be killed because the Prophet(P) forbade the killing of women, and since the prohibition is general it includes apostate women.[8]


Even after the Prophet's demise, his Sunnah remain preserved by the Muslims:

Abu Bakr advised Yazid: "I advise you ten things: Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camel except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."[9]


Conclusion
The Western Orientalist Bernard Lewis notes that :

From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition.[10]

We have utilized their scientific methodology to expose the false narratives attributed to the Prophet(PUBH) about the alleged killing of Abu 'Afak and Asma' bint Marwan. Examination of the isnâd (i.e., chain of reports) has revealed the unreliability of both stories. Also, an examination of the matn (i.e., text) has revealed their inevitable contradiction with vigorously authentic traditions and established Islamic principles. 'Abdûr Rahmân I. Doi had stated that :

As far as the Matn is concerned, the following principles of criticism of the Hadith are laid down:
(1) The Hadith should not be contrary to the text or the teaching of the Qur'an or the accepted basic principles of Islam.
(2) The Hadith should not be against the dictates of reason or laws of nature and common experience.
(3) The Hadith should not be contrary to the Traditions which have already been accepted by authorities as reliable and authentic by applying all principles.
(4) The Hadith which sings the praises and excellence of any tribe, place or persons should be generally rejected
(5) The Hadith that contains the dates and minute details of the future events should be rejected.
(6) The Hadith that contains some remarks of the Prophet which are not in keeping with the Islamic belief of Prophethood and the position of the Holy Prophet or such expressions as may not be suitable to him, should be rejected.[11]


But critics may have an objection: if these stories are false, then why they are mentioned in Islamic references in the first place? In response, we have earlier shown the position of learned Muslim scholars toward these references in the biographies, whose authors used to relate hundreds of reports without checking them or relying on serious criticism.

These particular stories even proved their unscientific methodology because they are reported without isnâd at all. This is extremely irregular of any respectable scholar. Ibn Jarîr At-Tabârî (224-310 A.H.) in his encyclopedic book of history Tarikh Al-Umam wa Al-Mulûk did not give mention of these stories at all despite the fact that he had mentioned far less significant reports in his work.

Hence, based on the empirical evidence, we can therefore conclude that the so-called "killing" of Abu 'Afak and Asma' bint Marwan respectively are inherently false and had never happened. This certainly throws the spanner into the works of the missionary's conclusions, which is based upon nothing but hatred, paranoia and xenophobia towards the elect Apostle of God, Muhammad(PUBH).


References
[1] Ibn Kathîr, Al-Ba'ith Al-Hadîth (Maktabat-us-Sunnah, Cairo, Egypt), p. 28
[2] Bernard Lewis, Islam In History (Open Court Publishing, 1993), pp.104-105
[3] Ibn Sa'd, Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, Vol. 1, pp. 27-28
[4] Ibn 'Adiyy, Al-Kamel, Vol. 6, p. 145
[5] Ibn al-Gawzi, Al-'Ilal, Vol. 1, p. 279
[6] Sahih al-Bukhârî, Vol. 3, Bk. 47, No. 786
[7] Ibid., Vol. 4, Bk. 52, No. 257 & 258. Also see Mutta Malik, Book 21, Section 3, Number 9
[8] Al-Hasafky, Sharh Ad-Durr-el-Mukhtar, Volume 1, p. 483
[9] Mutta Malik, Book 21, Section 3, Number 10
[10] Bernard Lewis, Op. Cit., pp.104-105
[11] 'Abdûr Rahmân I. Doi, Introduction to the Hadith (A.S. Nordeen, 2001), p. 15
ali18115
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Postby ali18115 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:37 am

Adadeh wrote:About that female Jew, hmmm ... I wonder why he let her go? Perhaps because the poison from the goat meal already started to cause damage in his brain and therefore he couldn't think clearly anymore. Or perhaps the REAL God up there decided it's time for this Profit wannabe to die and spared the woman's life for doing HIS job so well? Whatever the reason is it has nothing to do with the Profit's good will, since he has none.


So you think with a couple of your "perhaps" makes it all scientifically authentic? Perhaps next time you should not berandai-andaian dan beralas-alasan akan ugama orang lain.
ali18115
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Postby Adadeh » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:25 am

Ilmuwan2 Islam apologis berupaya sedemikian rupa ingin merubah sejarah untuk menampilkan nabinya sebagai manusia yang baik. Sungguh upaya murahan. Sama halnya dengan usaha mereka menggonta-ganti usia Aisyah, atau berusaha mengeluarkan berbagai teori untuk mengesahkan tindakan Muhammad mengawini anak kecil. Hal ini terjadi lagi pada pembunuhan Asma bint Marwan dan Abu Afak. Kedua pembunuhan ini tertulis di berbagai tulisan biografi Muhammad sejak ratusan tahun yang lalu sampai hari ini. Karena kisah mengerikan ini tidak baik untuk mempromosikan Islam, maka Islam apologis berusaha keras mengeluarkan berbagai teori untuk menyanggahnya. Kasihan sekali. Usaha mereka tampak seperti membuat Hitler/PolPot/Stalin/Musslini jadi orang baik.

Tulisan pembunuhan Asma bint Marwan dan Abu Afak tidak hanya terdapat dari satu sumber, melainkan beberapa. Syair Asma demikian detail tercantum di berbagai sumber. Alasannya menulis syair pun jelas. Ini semua terekam dalam sejarah dan bukan karangan belaka. Terserah elu kalau mau menutup mata dan ngotot bahwa nabimu bersih dari darah mereka.

Then we talk about historical references written by Muslim authors. First of all, these books are not trustworthy references due to the fact that they do not follow proper methodology of transmission.

Hehehe ... sungguh menggelikan. Bisa2nya membuat berbagai teori baru untuk menyanggah semua kisah yang jelek2 tentang nabimu. Kenapa tidak sekalian aja come out with the NEW, REVISED biography of the profit.
Last edited by Adadeh on Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Adadeh
Translator
 
Posts: 8459
Images: 414
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:59 am

Postby Adadeh » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:28 am

The Death of `Asma' Bint Marwan

Abstract
In Yathrib (Medina), Muhammad had a number of people killed. One of them was `Asma' bint Marwan. Her crime was that she spoke out against Muhammad for having another man murdered named Abu Afak. In his displeasure towards her, Muhammad asked his followers to murder her as well. She was killed while she slept.

Introduction

After Muhammad came to Yathrib he began to grow in power. However, a number of people, both Jew and Arab, opposed him. Muhammad began to silence his opposition by various means. One of these means was to have them murdered.

Muhammad did have a number of enemies and critics, some were dangerous, others were ordinary people who lived in the area and thought nil of Muhammad. They spoke their minds.
One by one, they were silenced. Through treaties, intrigue, or outright terror, Muhammad gained power in Medina. Eventually, he was master of the area. He knew his followers loved him, and would die for him. They were at his disposal; and at times, he chose to use them to accomplish his desires.

PRESENTATION OF ISLAMIC SOURCES
From the Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guilaume's translation "The Life of Muhammad") pages 675, 676.
Note: My comments will be in [ ] type brackets. Notes by the Translators of the texts will be in { } brackets.
`UMAYR B. `ADIYY'S JOURNEY TO KILL `ASMA' D. MARWAN She was of B. Umayyya b. Zayd. When Abu `Afak had been killed she displayed disaffection. `Abdullah b. al-Harith b. Al-Fudayl from his father said that she was married to a man of B. Khatma called Yazid b. Zayd. Blaming Islam and its followers she said:
I despise B. Malik and al-Nabit
and `Auf and B. al-Khazraj.
You obey a stranger who is none of yours,
One not of Murad or Madhhij. {1}
Do you expect good from him after the killing of your chiefs
Like a hungry man waiting for a cook's broth?
Is there no man of pride who would attack him by surprise
And cut off the hopes of those who expect aught from him?
Hassan b. Thabit answered her:
Banu Wa'il and B. Waqif and Khatma
Are inferior to B. al-Khazrahj.
When she called for folly woe to her in her weeping,
For death is coming.
She stirred up a man of glorious origin,
Noble in his going out and in his coming in.
Before midnight he dyed her in her blood
And incurred no guilt thereby.
When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O `Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so `Umayr went back to his people.
Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [daughter of] Marwan. She had five sons, and when `Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting." That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was `Umayr b. `Adiy who was called the "Reader", and `Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam.
{1} The note reads "Two tribes of Yamani origin."
[END OF IBN HISHAM QUOTE]

From Ibn Sa`d's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul Haq, volume 2, page 31.
SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI
Then (occurred) the sariyyah of `Umayr ibn `Adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against `Asma' Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. `Asma' was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him `Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).
[END OF IBN SA`D QUOTE]

CORROBORATING WRITINGS
In "23 Years; A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad", by Ali Dashti, (Mazda Press, 1994), Dashti also references the murders of Abu `Afak and `Asma' b. Marwan. He wrote (page 100):
Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. 'Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated.
User avatar
Adadeh
Translator
 
Posts: 8459
Images: 414
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:59 am

Postby Adadeh » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:31 am

The Murder of Abu `Afak
INTRODUCTION
After Muhammad arrived in Medina in 622 AD, a number of local people began to dislike him. Many of them were Jews, some were Pagan Arabs. One by one, Muhammad's critics were silenced; some became Muslims, some were murdered, others were driven out of Medina. This paper deals with Muhammad's request to have his men murder a Jewish man named Abu Afak. Abu Afak was a 120 year old man. Afak's crime: he urged his fellow Medinans to leave Muhammad.

PRESENTATION OF ISLAMIC SOURCES
NOTE: My comments will be enclosed by [ ] type brackets. Other brackets like ( ) are in the translations.
FROM THE SIRAT RASUL ALLAH (THE LIFE OF THE PROPHET OF GOD), BY IBN ISHAQ (1), page 675:
SALIM B. UMAYR'S EXPEDITION TO KILL ABU AFAK
Abu Afak was one of the B. Amr b. Auf of the B. Ubayda clan. He showed his disaffection when the apostle killed al-Harith b. Suwayd b. Samit and said:
"Long have I lived but never have I seen
An assembly or collection of people
More faithful to their undertaking
And their allies when called upon
Than the sons of Qayla when they assembled,
Men who overthrew mountains and never submitted,
A rider who came to them split them in two (saying)
"Permitted", "Forbidden", of all sorts of things.
Had you believed in glory or kingship
You would have followed Tubba.
[NOTE: the Tubba was a ruler from Yemen who invaded that part of what is present Saudi Arabia: the Qaylites resisted him]
The apostle said, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" Whereupon Salim b. Umayr, brother of B. Amr b. Auf, one of the "weepers", went forth and killed him. Umama b. Muzayriya said concerning that:
You gave the lie to God's religion and the man Ahmad! [Muhammad]
By him who was your father, evil is the son he produced!
A "hanif" gave you a thrust in the night saying
"Take that Abu Afak in spite of your age!"
Though I knew whether it was man or jinn
Who slew you in the dead of night (I would say naught).

FROM THE KITAB AL TABAQAT AL KABIR (BOOK OF THE MAJOR CLASSES), Volume 2, BY IBN SA'D, (2), page 32:
Then occurred the "sariyyah" [raid] of Salim Ibn Umayr al-Amri against Abu Afak, the Jew, in [the month of] Shawwal in the beginning of the twentieth month from the hijrah [immigration from Mecca to Medina in AD 622], of the Apostle of Allah. Abu Afak, was from Banu Amr Ibn Awf, and was an old man who had attained the age of one hundred and twenty years. He was a Jew, and used to instigate the people against the Apostle of Allah, and composed (satirical) verses [about Muhammad].
Salim Ibn Umayr who was one of the great weepers and who had participated in Badr, said, "I take a vow that I shall either kill Abu Afak or die before him. He waited for an opportunity until a hot night came, and Abu Afak slept in an open place. Salim Ibn Umayr knew it, so he placed the sword on his liver and pressed it till it reached his bed. The enemy of Allah screamed and the people who were his followers, rushed to him, took him to his house and interred him.

FROM A CONTEMPORY MUSLIM SCHOLAR ON ISLAM
FROM ALI DASHTI'S "23 YEARS: A STUDY OF THE PROPHETIC CAREER OF MOHAMMAD", (3) page 100:
Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he had lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated."
And prior to listing all of the assassinations Muhammad had ordered, Ali Dashti writes on page 97:
"Thus Islam was gradually transformed from a purely spiritual mission into a militant and punitive organization whose progress depended on booty from raids and revenue from the zakat tax."

DISCUSSION
Afak urged the people who lived in Medina to doubt and leave Muhammad. Afak found that Muhammad's sayings were strange and dictatorial. He chided the Arabs that put their faith in Muhammad. Muhammad heard of this and viewed the 120 year old man as a threat to his credibility, not to his life. Nowhere does it say that Afak urged his fellow Arabs to attack or harm Muhammad. Certainly a 120 year old man was not a physical threat to Muhammad or his followers.
What I find interesting is the last statement in Umama b. Muzayriya's verse:
"Though I knew whether it was man or jinn
Who slew you in the dead of night (I would say naught)."
This statement displays that the Muslims knew exactly what they were doing. They knew it was cold-blooded murder that they were doing at Muhammad's request. They wanted to keep it secret, they wanted to hide their evil deeds from the populace at large. That's why Umama said he wouldn't reveal who murdered Afak. The line "Take that Abu Afak in spite of your age!" also indicates a certain bad conscience about this deed even though it is overlayed with triumphalism trying to silencing this inner voice indicating that this was wrong.
User avatar
Adadeh
Translator
 
Posts: 8459
Images: 414
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:59 am

Postby Mr_GEJROT » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:53 am

Hahahaha...rupanya ada yang mengambil dari web ini tho, CP dan terima mateng nih http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/index.php/articles/the-killing-of-abu-afak-and-asma-bint-marwan
Ingat, jangan mudah percaya pada web, itu kata puan Ali. Masih ingat kata-katamu ini : "Kalau mahu mempelajari ayat2 Al-Quran jangan hanya berguru dengan webpage yang hanya memberi ringkasan tafsiran. Baca kitabnya supaya mendapat isi sepenuhnya." Apakah semua referensi yang disebutkan kamu baca?
Mr_GEJROT
Mulai Suka
Mulai Suka
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:14 am
Location: Indonesia

Postby ali18115 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:09 am

Adadeh wrote:Tulisan pembunuhan Asma bint Marwan dan Abu Afak tidak hanya terdapat dari satu sumber, melainkan beberapa. Syair Asma demikian detail tercantum di berbagai sumber. Alasannya menulis syair pun jelas. Ini semua terekam dalam sejarah dan bukan karangan belaka. Terserah elu kalau mau menutup mata dan ngotot bahwa nabimu bersih dari darah mereka.


Tulisan yang diulang2 bukan bererti "berbagai sumber" dengan setiap kali tulisan itu diulang. Sudah terbukti bahawa sirat yang ditulis oleh Ibn Ishâq mencantumkan hadis2 yang tidak ada isnad. Sama seperti berkhayal dengan berandai-andaian yang sering kamu lakukan itu. Apakah terdapat hadis2 ( pembunuhan Asmah dan Abu 'Afak) itu terdapat didalam senarai hadis2 Sahih Bukhari/Muslim ?

Kepada Muslimin dan Muslimat;
Setiap sirah Rasulullah SAW ditulis berpadukan Al-Quran dan Hadis2/Sunnah2 kerana tidak ada sumber lain dan tidak ada pula penulis2 kafir yang mahu menulis akan perlakuan Rasulullah SAW semasa baginda masih hidup. Setiap rujukkan hadis2 akan disenaraikan didalam sirah2. Adalah perkara yang penting apabila membaca sirah2 Rasulullah SAW, harus juga memastikan Hadis2 yang dicantumkan didalam sirah itu adalah hadis2 yang sahih dengan membaca sendiri kitab2 tafsir hadis seperti at-Tabari, atau bertanya sendiri dengan guru2 agama dll.
ali18115
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Postby ali18115 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:24 am

Mr_GEJROT wrote:Hahahaha...rupanya ada yang mengambil dari web ini tho, CP dan terima mateng nih http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/index.php/articles/the-killing-of-abu-afak-and-asma-bint-marwan
Ingat, jangan mudah percaya pada web, itu kata puan Ali. Masih ingat kata-katamu ini : " [b]Kalau mahu mempelajari ayat2 Al-Quran jangan hanya berguru dengan webpage yang hanya memberi ringkasan tafsiran. Baca kitabnya supaya mendapat isi sepenuhnya." Apakah semua referensi yang disebutkan kamu baca?[/b]


Kamu keliru deh. Kisah2 "pembunuhan Asmah dan Abu 'Afak" bukan dari ayat Al-Quran atau Hadis2 sahih. Kisah2 "pembunuhan Asmah dan Abu 'Afak" itu dari hadis2 (?) palsu yang tidak punya isnad. Dan sebab itulah tidak pernah ada didalam mana2 kitab2 tafsir Al-Quran/Hadis.
ali18115
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Postby Adadeh » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:37 am

Kisah ini juga ditulis oleh Ibn Sa'd in "Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir".
Kisah ini ditulis pula di Sirat Rasul Allah oleh Ibn Ishaq (A. Guilaume's translation "The Life of Muhammad") page 675, 676.
Ini adalah biografi, kisah hidup. Apakah isnad bisa diterapkan untuk menilai biografi? Mana yang duluan? Hadis atau Biografi? Kapankah konsep Isnad itu ditentukan? Kalau biografi itu dibuat terlebih dahulu daripada Hadis dan konsep Isnad, apakah lalu konsep Isnad itu bisa diterapkan untuk biografi?
User avatar
Adadeh
Translator
 
Posts: 8459
Images: 414
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:59 am

Postby Mr_GEJROT » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:49 am

ali18115 wrote:Kamu keliru deh. Kisah2 "pembunuhan Asmah dan Abu 'Afak" bukan dari ayat Al-Quran atau Hadis2 sahih. Kisah2 "pembunuhan Asmah dan Abu 'Afak" itu dari hadis2 (?) palsu yang tidak punya isnad. Dan sebab itulah tidak pernah ada didalam mana2 kitab2 tafsir Al-Quran/Hadis.

Kamu rupanya nggak nangkap apa yang gue maksud. Kamu itu nggak konsisten dalam omongan disatu sisi kamu menganjurkan untuk jangan berguru pada pada web, tapi kamu sendiri mengutip mateng-mateng dari web. Apakah semua referensi yang disebutkan sudah kamu baca?. Jagalah konsistensi berfikir dan berbicara.
Mr_GEJROT
Mulai Suka
Mulai Suka
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:14 am
Location: Indonesia

Postby ali18115 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:13 pm

Adadeh wrote:Kisah ini juga ditulis oleh Ibn Sa'd in "Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir".
Kisah ini ditulis pula di Sirat Rasul Allah oleh Ibn Ishaq (A. Guilaume's translation "The Life of Muhammad") page 675, 676.
Ini adalah biografi, kisah hidup. Apakah isnad bisa diterapkan untuk menilai biografi? Mana yang duluan? Hadis atau Biografi? Kapankah konsep Isnad itu ditentukan?


Samaada sesuatu sirah (biografi) Rasulullah SAW ditulis sebelum atau sesudah konsep Isnad itu ditentukan tidak lagi menjadi isu kepada kita di zaman sekarang. Sebelum bumi diketahuhi bulat, banyak terdapat kisah2 orang2 zaman dahulu yang menceritakan pergembaraan/pelayaran kehujung dunia (edge of the earth). Apakah kamu mahu mengatakan kisah2 itu masih benar sesudah diketahui bumi itu bulat hanya berdasarkan bahawa kisah2 hujung dunia itu ditulis sebelum fakta sebenarnya ditemui? Begitu jugalah halnya dengan sirah2 yang ditulis sebelum konsep Isnad itu ditentukan dimana kita sekarang sudah mengetahui bahawa terdapat kisah2 didalamnya yang berdasarkan hadis2 palsu yang tidak punya Isnad mahupun yang kukuh mengikut konsep Isnad yang sudah tersedia ada.

Adadeh wrote:Kalau biografi itu dibuat terlebih dahulu daripada Hadis dan konsep Isnad, apakah lalu konsep Isnad itu bisa diterapkan untuk biografi?


Hadis2/Sunnah2 Rasulullah SAW sudah wujud lebih awal dari Kitab Ibn Sa'd atau biografi Ibn Ishaq itu kerana Rasulullah SAW semasa masih hidupnya sudah mengatakan sendiri bahawa wasiat peninggalan baginda adalah Al-Quran dan Sunnah2 Rasulullah SAW. Sedangkan Kitab Ibn Sa'd atau biografi Ibn Ishaq itu ditulis selepas wafatnya Rasulullah SAW. Tidakkah kamu tahu bahawa setiap penulis2 (yang Muslim atau bukan-Muslim) kitab2 dan sirah2 terpaksa merujuk kepada Hadis2/Sunnah2 Rasulullah SAW kerana tiada lain sumber yang ada. Jadi kisah2 didalam setiap sirah (biografi) itu bergantung kepada kesahihan Hadis2/Sunah2 yang digunakan.
ali18115
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Postby ali18115 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:24 pm

Mr_GEJROT wrote:Kamu rupanya nggak nangkap apa yang gue maksud. Kamu itu nggak konsisten dalam omongan disatu sisi kamu menganjurkan untuk jangan berguru pada pada web, tapi kamu sendiri mengutip mateng-mateng dari web. Apakah semua referensi yang disebutkan sudah kamu baca?. Jagalah konsistensi berfikir dan berbicara.


Kamu yang jelas kelihatan tidak tahu membedzakan ayat2 Al-Quran dengan sirah (biografi) Rasulullah SAW itu, sebaiknya diem2 saja dari berkomentar tidak tentu hala.
ali18115
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Postby Adadeh » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:29 pm

Hadis2/Sunnah2 Rasulullah SAW sudah wujud lebih awal dari Kitab Ibn Sa'd atau biografi Ibn Ishaq itu kerana Rasulullah SAW semasa masih hidupnya sudah mengatakan sendiri bahawa wasiat peninggalan baginda adalah Al-Quran dan Sunnah2 Rasulullah SAW.


Ibn Ishaq adalah penulis biografi Mr. Mo yang pertama. Dia lahir di Medina sekitar tahun 707 dan meninggal di Baghdad sekitar 773. Tulisan biografi dia jauh lebih tua dibanding Hadis2 sahih:
al-Bukhari (d. 870) included 7275 hadiths
Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875) included 9200.
Abu Da'ud (d. 888)
al-Tirmidhi (d. 892)
al-Nasa'i (d. 915)
Ibn Maja (d. 886).

Sumber informasi yang diakui sah oleh Muslim tentang Islam adalah:
1) the "Hadiths" (Traditions) of Bukhari, Muslim, and Abu Dawud,
2) the "Sirat Rasul Allah" originally written by Ibn Ishaq and later rescinded by Ibn Hisham,
3) and the "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir" written by Ibn Sa'd.
dan bisa ditambah pula:
4) "23 Years - A study of the prophetic career of Muhammad", by Ali Dashti.

Karena biografi beda dengan Hadis, saya tidak mengerti mengapa isnad bisa pula diterapkan untuk biografi. Tapi andaikata memang ingin diterapkan, ya silakan saja. Untuk diakui sahih, Hadis harus punya rantai pengiriman/penyampaian berita yang tak terputus. Setiap mata rantai dihubungkan oleh narator yang mendengar kisah dari narator sebelumnya, dan rantai ini tidak boleh putus.

Tapi, andaikata pun putus, ini bukan berarti kisah itu tidak pernah terjadi. Contohnya, lihat isi Qur'an dan bagaimana ayat2nya dulu ditulis. Muhammad tidak mewariskan satu buku Qur'an yang utuh pada masa hidupnya. Ayat2 Qur'an dikumpulkan Zaid bin Thabit (juru tulis Muhammad) atas perintah Abu Bakr. Zaid bukanlah orang yang ditunjuk Muhammad sebagai pengajar Qur'an yang patut diteladani seperti: 'Abdullah bin Masud, Salim, Mu'adh dan Ubai bin Ka'b (Bukhari Volume 6, Buku 61, Nomer 521). Malah akhirnya Ka'b pun menulis Qur'an versinya sendiri. Ketika Zaid selesai mengumpulkan ayat2 Qur'an dari berbagai sumber, tidak ada keterangan sama sekali bahwa dia mencoba mencocokan isinya dengan keempat orang yang direkomendasikan nabi. Ayat2 yang dia kumpulkan pun tidak jelas apakah telah melalui mutawatir isnad yang authentik. Ini pun kemudian menimbulkan konflik di kemudian hari sampai2 Uthman memerintahkan pembakaran Qur'an yang tidak dianggap sama dengan versi Zaid. Tapi dari mana kita tahu mana yang asli dan yang tidak karena sebenarnya Zaid pun bukan ahli Qur'an yang paling baik saat itu. Meskipun begitu, orang2 Islam tetap menganggap isi Qur'an itu autentik.

Sama halnya dengan biografi nabi yang ditulis Ibn Ishaq. Meskipun tidak semua tulisannya dianggap punya isnad yang sempurna, tapi isinya tetap dianggap autentik. Kenyataan bahwa akhir2 ini banyak Muslim yang berusaha menyangkalnya adalah karena isi biografi nabi ini banyak yang tidak sesuai dengan penggambaran sifat nabi dalam angan2 mereka bahwa dia adalah orang yang saleh, baik hati, dll. Kisah2 kekejaman nabi itulah yang menyebabkan adanya usaha2 untuk menyatakan tulisan biografi Ibn Ishaq ini tidak autentik. Lagipula, sampai hari ini tidak ada pernyataan resmi dari seluruh kalangan ilmuwan Islam seluruh dunia bahwa biografi nabi yang ditulis Ibn Ishaq itu tidak reliable.

Sebelum bumi diketahuhi bulat, banyak terdapat kisah2 orang2 zaman dahulu yang menceritakan pergembaraan/pelayaran kehujung dunia (edge of the earth). Apakah kamu mahu mengatakan kisah2 itu masih benar sesudah diketahui bumi itu bulat hanya berdasarkan bahawa kisah2 hujung dunia itu ditulis sebelum fakta sebenarnya ditemui?


Ini membuka a new can of worm sebab pernyataan bumi itu datar jelas tercantum dalam Qur’an dan Hadis. Ini sudah terbukti salah sama sekali, dan ini pun bukanlah satu2nya kesalahan sains dalam Qur’an dan Hadis. Tapi kesalahan2 ini tidak pula mengganggu imanmu untuk tetap percaya bahwa Qur’an dan Hadis adalah sumber informasi illahi yang autentik, bukan? Sekarang saya tanya pada kamu mengapa setelah kamu tahu Qur’an dan Hadis salah menjabarkan tentang keadaan bumi dan alam raya, kamu tetap saja percaya sama isinya?
User avatar
Adadeh
Translator
 
Posts: 8459
Images: 414
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:59 am

Postby ali18115 » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:32 am

Adadeh wrote:Tapi dari mana kita tahu mana yang asli dan yang tidak karena sebenarnya Zaid pun bukan ahli Qur'an yang paling baik saat itu. Meskipun begitu, orang2 Islam tetap menganggap isi Qur'an itu autentik.


Tahukah kamu bahawa penyusunan Al-Quran oleh Abu Bakar RA, Usman RA dan Umar RA itu juga berpandukan Sunah2 Rasulullah SAW. Pada masa itu Isnad tidak ada dan tidak diperlukan kerana semua sahabat2 Rasulullah SAW, yang kemudiannya adalah perawi2 sahih didalam Isnad2 itu, masih hidup. Bukan Zaid seorang sahaja yang membuat penyusunan tetapi setiap sahabat2 Rasulullah SAW yang masih hidup melakukannya bersama .

Adadeh wrote:Lagipula, sampai hari ini tidak ada pernyataan resmi dari seluruh dunia bahwa biografi nabi yang ditulis Ibn Ishaq itu reliable.


Dan tidak pula ada pernyataan resmi dari seluruh kalangan ilmuwan Islam seluruh dunia bahwa biografi nabi yang ditulis Ibn Ishaq itu tidak reliable keseluruhannya. Jika penulisan Ibn Ishaq itu sudah dianggap muktamat dan benar keseluruhannya, apa perlu penulis2 sirah Rasullulah SAW yang lain masih menulis sirah2 Rasulullah SAW mengikut pengajian dan pengetahuan hingga ke hari ini.

Adadeh wrote:Sekarang saya tanya pada kamu mengapa setelah kamu tahu Qur’an dan Hadis salah menjabarkan tentang keadaan bumi dan alam raya, kamu tetap saja percaya sama isinya?


Saya tidak berpendapat Al-Qur’an dan Hadis (pastikan yang sahih) salah menjabarkan tentang keadaan bumi dan alam raya sebab itu saya tetap saja percaya sama isinya.
ali18115
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Postby Adadeh » Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:35 pm

Bukan Zaid seorang sahaja yang membuat penyusunan tetapi setiap sahabat2 Rasulullah SAW yang masih hidup melakukannya bersama .

Tadinya kamu bilang Sahih lebih tua daripada Biografi. Sudah terbukti salah, sekarang mau mengatakan bahwa sahabat2 Mr. Moh juga ngebantu si Zaid. Mana Hadisnya? Jangan cuma asbun doank.

Udah banyak keterangan tentang isi Qur'an yang berbeda-beda gara2 Mr. Mo lupa, atau melafalkan ayat yang sama dengan cara yang berbeda-beda. Hhh ... tambal sulam ga' karuan. Karena banyak versi2 Qur'an yang beredar di jaman Uthman dan isinya berbeda satu sama lain, maka dia nekad bertindak drastis dengan membakari Qur'an yang berbeda dengan versi Zaid. Tapi setelah pembakaran itu pun masih aja ada versi Qur'an lain yang beredar. Mana yang asli ya? Walahualam.
Ini keterangan dari Bang Vivaldi:
http://indonesian.knowislam.info/forum/ ... .php?t=491
Ini keterangan yang diedit Ibn Warraq:
http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/books/o ... koran.html
Ini keterangan dari Sher Kahn:
http://indonesian.knowislam.info/forum/ ... .php?t=566

Saya tidak berpendapat Al-Qur’an dan Hadis (pastikan yang sahih) salah menjabarkan tentang keadaan bumi dan alam raya sebab itu saya tetap saja percaya sama isinya.

Yup, silakan saja kalau mau nutup mata, idung, dan telinga. Nabimu bilang meteor adalah misile buat nembak jin, gunung2 di bumi adalah pasak2 agar bumi tidak goyah, bumi itu datar, bintang2 terletak di langit terdekat troposfer, matahari terbenam di kolam keruh, dll, dll. Pengetahuan sains dari mana nih? Kelihatannya sih ngarang sendiri.

Jika penulisan Ibn Ishaq itu sudah dianggap muktamat dan benar keseluruhannya, apa perlu penulis2 sirah Rasullulah SAW yang lain masih menulis sirah2 Rasulullah SAW mengikut pengajian dan pengetahuan hingga ke hari ini.

Iya, seperti yang gue udah berkali-kali bilang, yang diutak-atik ya bagian2 yang menceritakan kejelekan nabimu yang luarbiasa kejam itu. Kalau semua isinya bagus2 tentang nabimu, para penulis itu sekarang tidak akan cari segala alasan untuk menyangkalnya. Sekarang buktikan isnad mana nih yang putus dari kisah pembunuhan Abu Afak dan Asmah? Mana nih mata rantai tukang cerita yang terputus? Kisah lain di biografi itu diterima, tapi kisah ttg. Asmah dan Abu Afak tidak? Hah? Pengen mencuci tangan nabimu atas darah kedua orang itu tampaknya.
User avatar
Adadeh
Translator
 
Posts: 8459
Images: 414
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:59 am

Postby ali18115 » Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:34 pm

Adadeh wrote:Tadinya kamu bilang Sahih lebih tua daripada Biografi. Sudah terbukti salah, sekarang mau mengatakan bahwa sahabat2 Mr. Moh juga ngebantu si Zaid. Mana Hadisnya? Jangan cuma asbun doank.


Yang saya bilang Hadis/Sunnah2 Rasulullah SAW lebih tua dari biografi. Isnad ditentukan selepas biografi Ibn Ishaq, dimana penulis2 Hadis seperti Imam Bukhari/Muslim mengunakan Isnad untuk menentukan Hadis2 Sahih. Dari mana kamu kutip kenyataan saya bahawa "Sahih lebih tua dari Biografi" ?

Adadeh wrote:Ini keterangan dari Bang Vivaldi:
http://indonesian.knowislam.info/forum/ ... .php?t=491
Ini keterangan yang diedit Ibn Warraq:
http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/books/o ... koran.html
Ini keterangan dari Sher Kahn:
http://indonesian.knowislam.info/forum/ ... .php?t=566


Kan lebih banyak lagi kitab2 Hadis yang ditulis oleh ulamak2 yang bisa saya rujuk. Vivaldi, Ibn Warraq dan Sher Khan itu siapa didalam Islam?

Adadeh wrote:Yup, silakan saja kalau mau nutup mata, idung, dan telinga. Nabimu bilang meteor adalah misile buat nembak jin, gunung2 di bumi adalah pasak2 agar bumi tidak goyah, bumi itu datar, bintang2 terletak di langit terdekat troposfer, matahari terbenam di kolam keruh, dll, dll. Pengetahuan sains dari mana nih? Kelihatannya sih ngarang sendiri.


Bukankah kamu itu yang menutup segala kerana hanya mahu mendengar tafsiran ayat2 Al-Quran oleh mereka2 yang mengakui anti-Islam. Pernahkah kamu membaca tafsiran2 ayat2 yang sama dari ulamak2 Islam?

Adadeh wrote:Iya, seperti yang gue udah berkali-kali bilang, yang diutak-atik ya bagian2 yang menceritakan kejelekan nabimu yang luarbiasa kejam itu. Kalau semua isinya bagus2 tentang nabimu, para penulis itu sekarang tidak akan cari segala alasan untuk menyangkalnya. Sekarang buktikan isnad mana nih yang putus dari kisah pembunuhan Abu Afak dan Asmah? Mana nih mata rantai tukang cerita yang terputus? Kisah lain di biografi itu diterima, tapi kisah ttg. Asmah dan Abu Afak tidak? Hah? Pengen mencuci tangan nabimu atas darah kedua orang itu tampaknya.


Ya itu dia bukti saya bahawa kamu tidak mahu mendengar/membaca argumen2 dari pihak Islam sedangkan saya juga sudah mengatakan kisah pembunuhan Asmah dan Abu Afak itu tidak mempunyai Isnad yang bisa diterima. Kamu masih menanyakan rantai tukang cerita yang terputus kerana kamu memilih tidak mahu membaca artikel yang saya berikan diposting terdahulu dimana itu semua itu dihuraikan, sedangkan kamu juga yang meminta supaya saya berikan artikelnya sebagai bukti. Kamu tidak jujur dan selagi itu kamu tidak akan memahami Islam. Mungkin juga kamu sengaja tidak mahu memahami Islam sebab itu kamu memilih untuk tidak jujur.
ali18115
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Postby e_vaholic » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:12 pm

sebenernya yang ga ngerti tuh sapa sih???
mestinya lo tau dulu kenapa surat attaubah diturunkan!
klo dah ngerti baru ngomong!
klo ga tau mending DIAM aja!
e_vaholic
Acuh Tak Acuh
Acuh Tak Acuh
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:16 pm

Postby Adadeh » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:29 pm

Dari mana kamu kutip kenyataan saya bahawa "Sahih lebih tua dari Biografi" ?

Maaf, bukan Sahih, gue salah ketik. Seharusnya Hadis. Ini perkataanmu sendiri:
Hadis2/Sunnah2 Rasulullah SAW sudah wujud lebih awal dari Kitab Ibn Sa'd atau biografi Ibn Ishaq itu

Ini kan jelas salah. Selidiki sendiri kapan biografi itu dibuat, kapan Sahih Bukhari, Muslim, dll itu dibuat?

Vivaldi, Ibn Warraq dan Sher Khan itu siapa didalam Islam?

Well, just counter their observations first before you judged them. Ibn Warraq was a prominent Islamic scholar before he decided to leave Islam.

Bukankah kamu itu yang menutup segala kerana hanya mahu mendengar tafsiran ayat2 Al-Quran oleh mereka2 yang mengakui anti-Islam.

Lihat, kamu mengelak mengomentari isi tulisan Qur'an yang gue kutip yang ngawur tentang alam raya sebab memang sudah terbukti salah sekali. Kenapa kau tidak bisa melihat kesalahan2 ini? Karena kau menutup logikamu terhadap segala sesuatu yang tak masuk akal dalam Qur'an.

sedangkan saya juga sudah mengatakan kisah pembunuhan Asmah dan Abu Afak itu tidak mempunyai Isnad yang bisa diterima.
Iya, memang artikel yang kau kutip dan pendapatmu sendiri sukar untuk dipertanggungjawabkan secara ilmiah. Kenapa? Karena tidak ada penjelasan DI MANA putusnya mata rantai itu. Itu hanya klaim kalian saja, tapi MANA urutan pencerita itu sendiri? SIAPAKAH MEREKA? BAGAIMANA PROSES PENYELIDIKANNYA? Itu semua yang harus ditelaah dahulu sebelum percaya begitu saja akan hasil riset orang.

Terus kamu bilang teman2 nabi membantu Zaid menulis Qur'an. Mana bukti ayat atau Hadisnya? Gue baca di Sahih Bukhari dia khawatir sekali sama tugas yang berat itu, sebab dia tahu sebenarnya dia bukan ahli Qur'an yang paling wahid saat itu. Dia pun tidak bilang dibantu oleh siapapun.

BTW, tentang MuridMurtad juga sudah posted satu artikel yang berhubungan dengan topik pembicaraan ini:
http://indonesian.knowislam.info/forum/ ... .php?t=723
Gue yakin pula ini tidak akan berarti banyak bagimu. Gue cukupkan sampai sekian dulu aja. Silakan kalau mau meneruskan sendiri.
User avatar
Adadeh
Translator
 
Posts: 8459
Images: 414
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:59 am

Postby ali18115 » Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:36 am

Adadeh wrote:
ali18115 wrote:Hadis2/Sunnah2 Rasulullah SAW sudah wujud lebih awal dari Kitab Ibn Sa'd atau biografi Ibn Ishaq itu

Ini kan jelas salah. Selidiki sendiri kapan biografi itu dibuat, kapan Sahih Bukhari, Muslim, dll itu dibuat?


Hadis/Sunnah Rasulullah SAW sudah wujud sebelum baginda wafat i.e. sebelum biografi Ibn Ishaq ditulis, kerana kalau tidak, mana mungkin Rasulullah SAW sendiri mengatakan peninggalan baginda adalah Al-Quran dan Hadis/Sunnah Rasulullah SAW. Imam Bukhari/Muslim hanya mengumpul, menapis dan menyenaraikan hadis2 yang telah sedia-ada sebelumnya supaya hanya hadis2 yang sahih diterima.

Adadeh wrote:Well, just counter their observations first before you judged them. Ibn Warraq was a prominent Islamic scholar before he decided to leave Islam.


Selain dari forum seperti ini (dan dari webpages), nama2 seperti Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina dkk. tidak pernah diketahui oleh masyarakat. Tidak pula ada kitab2 dari mereka, malahan orangnya tidak pernah bersua. You expect me to believe them more than ulamak2 dan guru2 yang menulis kitab2 tanpa perlu menyembunyikan diri?

Adadeh wrote:Lihat, kamu mengelak mengomentari isi tulisan Qur'an yang gue kutip yang ngawur tentang alam raya sebab memang sudah terbukti salah sekali. Kenapa kau tidak bisa melihat kesalahan2 ini?


Bukan mengelak, saya gak mahu OOT. BTW, bukan isi Al-Quran itu salah, hanya tafsiran2 yang dibuat oleh anti-Islam itu yang salah kerana tidak nyambung dengan bahagian2 lain didalam Al-Quran in all cases.

Adadeh wrote:Gue yakin pula ini tidak akan berarti banyak bagimu. Gue cukupkan sampai sekian dulu aja. Silakan kalau mau meneruskan sendiri.


Terpulang.
ali18115
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:10 pm

Postby anti islam » Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:35 am

ali18115 wrote:Hadis/Sunnah Rasulullah SAW sudah wujud sebelum baginda wafat i.e. sebelum biografi Ibn Ishaq ditulis, kerana kalau tidak, mana mungkin Rasulullah SAW sendiri mengatakan peninggalan baginda adalah Al-Quran dan Hadis/Sunnah Rasulullah SAW. Imam Bukhari/Muslim hanya mengumpul, menapis dan menyenaraikan hadis2 yang telah sedia-ada sebelumnya supaya hanya hadis2 yang sahih diterima.

---deleted---

selama ini gua ngak pernah melihat jawabn anda yang pasti.. kalau ditanya betul atau salah...jawabannya cuman satu betul/salah..

jangan pelintat-pelintut...kaya orang mabuk naik onta....nama aja koq ali ababa...
anti islam
Jatuh Hati
Jatuh Hati
 
Posts: 706
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:51 am

Next

Return to Quran & Hadist



 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot]